European link to the Mongols - Revision history

Wjhonson at 04:07, 6 March 2007

2007-03-06T04:07:41Z

Wjhonson at 04:07, 6 March 2007

2007-03-06T04:07:13Z

Wjhonson at 04:05, 6 March 2007

2007-03-06T04:05:10Z

Wjhonson: /* Secondary sources */

2007-03-06T04:00:45Z

‎Secondary sources

Wjhonson: /* Secondary sources */

2007-03-06T04:00:20Z

‎Secondary sources

Wjhonson at 03:54, 6 March 2007

2007-03-06T03:54:31Z

Wjhonson at 00:39, 6 March 2007

2007-03-06T00:39:55Z

Wjhonson at 23:17, 5 March 2007

2007-03-05T23:17:38Z

Wjhonson at 23:16, 5 March 2007

2007-03-05T23:16:24Z

Wjhonson at 23:15, 5 March 2007

2007-03-05T23:15:34Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:07, 6 March 2007
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	*Don Stone posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" This report on Wagner's Pedigree 44 (Atlantic to Pacific, 1274) is correct. The last marriage connection on the Pacific side is Maria (illegitimate daughter of Michael VIII Palaeologus), who married Abaka, Ilkhan of Persia, nephew of Kubla Khan.		*Don Stone posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" This report on Wagner's Pedigree 44 (Atlantic to Pacific, 1274) is correct. The last marriage connection on the Pacific side is Maria (illegitimate daughter of Michael VIII Palaeologus), who married Abaka, Ilkhan of Persia, nephew of Kubla Khan.
		+
		+	==See also==
		+	[[Prince William to Genghis Khan]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:07, 6 March 2007
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	'''European royal link to the Mongols'''		'''European royal link to the Mongols'''
−	~~#William Arthur Philip Windsor, Prince of /England/~~
−	~~#Charles Philip Arthur Windsor, Prince of /England/~~
−	~~#Elizabeth II, Queen of /Great Britain and Ireland/ 1952-~~
−	~~#George VI, King of /Great Britain and Ireland/ 1936-52~~
−	~~#Mary of Teck (May), Queen of /England/~~
−	~~#Francis Paul Charles, Duke of /Teck/~~
−	~~#Claudine, Countess /Rhedey/~~
−	~~#Agnes Inczedy de /Nagy-Varad/~~
−	~~#Gregor Inczedy de /Nagy-Varad/~~
−	~~#Agnes Kendeffy de /Malomviz/~~
−	~~#Katalin Kuun de /Osdola/~~
−	~~#Christina Racz de /Galgo/~~
−	~~#Peter Racz de /Galgo/~~
−	~~#Adam Racz de /Galgo/~~
−	~~#Semphira Logofat de /Szaszebes/~~
−	~~#Stanca Basarab of /Wallachia/~~
−	~~#Mircea III "the Shepherd", Prince of /Wallachia/~~
−	~~#Radu IV "the Great", Prince of /Wallachia/ 1495-1508~~
−	~~#Vlad IV "the Monk" of /Wallachia/~~
−	~~#Vlad II Dracul, Prince of /Wallachia/ 1436-42, 1443-47 , illegitimate~~
−	~~#Mircea the Elder, Prince of /Wallachia/ 1386-1418~~
−	~~#Radu I, Prince of /Wallachia/ ~1377 - ~1383~~
−	~~#Alexander, Prince of /Wallachia/~~
−	~~#Basarab I, Prince of /Wallachia/ ~1310-1352~~
−	~~#Thocomerius "Toq-Timur", Prince of /Wallachia/ ~1290-~1310~~
−	~~#Mongke-Timur, 5th Khan of the /Golden Horde/ 1266-82~~
−	~~#Batu Khan of the /Blue Horde/~~
−	~~#Juchi, 1st Khan of the /Golden Horde/~~
−	~~#Genghis /Khan/~~

	==Secondary sources==		==Secondary sources==

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:05, 6 March 2007
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	'''European royal link to the Mongols'''		'''European royal link to the Mongols'''
		+	#William Arthur Philip Windsor, Prince of /England/
		+	#Charles Philip Arthur Windsor, Prince of /England/
		+	#Elizabeth II, Queen of /Great Britain and Ireland/ 1952-
		+	#George VI, King of /Great Britain and Ireland/ 1936-52
		+	#Mary of Teck (May), Queen of /England/
		+	#Francis Paul Charles, Duke of /Teck/
		+	#Claudine, Countess /Rhedey/
		+	#Agnes Inczedy de /Nagy-Varad/
		+	#Gregor Inczedy de /Nagy-Varad/
		+	#Agnes Kendeffy de /Malomviz/
		+	#Katalin Kuun de /Osdola/
		+	#Christina Racz de /Galgo/
		+	#Peter Racz de /Galgo/
		+	#Adam Racz de /Galgo/
		+	#Semphira Logofat de /Szaszebes/
		+	#Stanca Basarab of /Wallachia/
		+	#Mircea III "the Shepherd", Prince of /Wallachia/
		+	#Radu IV "the Great", Prince of /Wallachia/ 1495-1508
		+	#Vlad IV "the Monk" of /Wallachia/
		+	#Vlad II Dracul, Prince of /Wallachia/ 1436-42, 1443-47 , illegitimate
		+	#Mircea the Elder, Prince of /Wallachia/ 1386-1418
		+	#Radu I, Prince of /Wallachia/ ~1377 - ~1383
		+	#Alexander, Prince of /Wallachia/
		+	#Basarab I, Prince of /Wallachia/ ~1310-1352
		+	#Thocomerius "Toq-Timur", Prince of /Wallachia/ ~1290-~1310
		+	#Mongke-Timur, 5th Khan of the /Golden Horde/ 1266-82
		+	#Batu Khan of the /Blue Horde/
		+	#Juchi, 1st Khan of the /Golden Horde/
		+	#Genghis /Khan/

	==Secondary sources==		==Secondary sources==

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 *Todd Farmerie posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" that two royal-Mongol gateways are Basarab of Wallachia, and some ancestress of Ivan the Terrible of Russia. Todd also states that Vlad the Impaler was a Basarab.
-*Paul Heath posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" quoting Moncrieffe (HRH, page 84): "... Kutyen Khan took refuge in Hungary ... and married his daughter to King Bela IV's son, the future King Stephen V ..." And again quoting Moncreiffe (HRH, page 101): "... There seems no reason, therefore, to doubt that 'Thocomerius', father of Basarab the Great, Prince of
+*Paul Heath posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" quoting Moncrieffe (HRH, page 84): "... Kutyen Khan took refuge in Hungary ... and married his daughter to King Bela IV's son, the future King Stephen V ..." And again quoting Moncreiffe (HRH, page 101): "... There seems no reason, therefore, to doubt that 'Thocomerius', father of Basarab the Great, Prince of Valachia 1310-38, was one of two contemporary Tatar princes both named Toktemir in that area, both great-grandsons of prince Juchi, first Khan of the Golden Horde (died 1224) ..."
 Valachia 1310-38, was one of two contemporary Tatar princes both named Toktemir in that area, both great-grandsons of prince Juchi, first Khan of the Golden Horde (died 1224) ..."
 *Paul Heath (op cit) also, quoting Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 29): "... the grand prince married Yelena Glinskaya, a 23-year-old princess of Tatar descent ... Their first child, Ivan ..." And again quoting Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 44): "... Ivan announced that he was abdicating ... Simeon Bekbulatovich, a descendant of Genghis Khan, was enthroned as tsar ... Ivan resumed the tsardom once the year was over, and pensioned off Simeon by making him grand prince of Tver."
 *Don Stone posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" This report on Wagner's Pedigree 44 (Atlantic to Pacific, 1274) is correct.  The last marriage connection on the Pacific side is Maria (illegitimate daughter of Michael VIII Palaeologus), who married Abaka, Ilkhan of Persia, nephew of Kubla Khan.

@@ Line 2: / Line 2: @@
 ==Secondary sources==
-*Todd Farmerie posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols"
+*Todd Farmerie posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" that two royal-Mongol gateways are Basarab of Wallachia, and some ancestress of Ivan the Terrible of Russia. Todd also states that Vlad the Impaler was a Basarab.
-<blockquote>
-I have seen two sets of claims. Basarab, the founder of the family
-which bore his name, was son of Thocomerius of Wallachia. This appears to be a rendering of the Cuman name Toktomer, and there was a Mongol princeling of this name lining in the Crimea at the time.  This has led to the suggestion (I specifically recall it from Montcrieffe) that the Basarabs were of Mongol origin.  I also recall there being some Russian nobility that married Mongols, and it has been claimed that Ivan the Terrible descended from them, but I don't recall the details.</blockquote>
-<blockquote>
+*Paul Heath posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" quoting Moncrieffe (HRH, page 84): "... Kutyen Khan took refuge in Hungary ... and married his daughter to King Bela IV's son, the future King Stephen V ..." And again quoting Moncreiffe (HRH, page 101): "... There seems no reason, therefore, to doubt that 'Thocomerius', father of Basarab the Great, Prince of
-It is perhaps relevant (and not coincidental) that these claims would
+Valachia 1310-38, was one of two contemporary Tatar princes both named Toktemir in that area, both great-grandsons of prince Juchi, first Khan of the Golden Horde (died 1224) ..."
-trace the two (perhaps) most notorious European potentates (bearing in mind that Vlad the Impaler was a Basarab) from Mongols.  Some of the accounts I have seen are explicit in the suggestion that it is the descent from Mongols that explain these Men Behaving Badly, which smacks of racism. This is as an aside, because the genealogy is what it is, and whatever metainterpretation people draw from it have no bearing on the facts, one way or the other."</blockquote>
------------
 Paul Heath posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols"
-<blockquote>Moncrieffe (HRH, page 84): "... Kutyen Khan took refuge in Hungary ... and married his daughter to King Bela IV's son, the future King Stephen V ..."
+*Paul Heath (op cit) also, quoting Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 29): "... the grand prince married Yelena Glinskaya, a 23-year-old princess of Tatar descent ... Their first child, Ivan ..." And again quoting Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 44): "... Ivan announced that he was abdicating ... Simeon Bekbulatovich, a descendant of Genghis Khan, was enthroned as tsar ... Ivan resumed the tsardom once the year was over, and pensioned off Simeon by making him grand prince of Tver."
-Moncreiffe (HRH, page 101): "... There seems no reason, therefore, to
+*Don Stone posted on Mar 5, 2007 to Gen-Medieval "Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols" This report on Wagner's Pedigree 44 (Atlantic to Pacific, 1274) is correct.  The last marriage connection on the Pacific side is Maria (illegitimate daughter of Michael VIII Palaeologus), who married Abaka, Ilkhan of Persia, nephew of Kubla Khan.
-doubt that 'Thocomerius', father of Basarab the Great, Prince of
-Valachia 1310-38, was one of two contemporary Tatar princes both named Toktemir in that area, both great-grandsons of prince Juchi, first Khan of the Golden Horde (died 1224) ..."</blockquote>
-−
-<blockquote>
-Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 29): "... the grand
-prince married Yelena Glinskaya, a 23-year-old princess of Tatar
-descent ... Their first child, Ivan ..."
-−
-Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 44): "... Ivan announced
-that he was abdicating ... Simeon Bekbulatovich, a descendant of
-Genghis Khan, was enthroned as tsar ... Ivan resumed the tsardom once
-the year was over, and pensioned off Simeon by making him grand prince of Tver." </blockquote>
-----------------------------------
-Don Stone posted on Mar 5, 2007
-<blockquote>This report on Wagner's Pedigree 44 (Atlantic to Pacific, 1274) is correct.  The last marriage connection on the Pacific side is Maria (illegitimate daughter of Michael VIII Palaeologus), who married Abaka, Ilkhan of Persia, nephew of Kubla Khan.</blockquote>

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:39, 6 March 2007
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	Genghis Khan, was enthroned as tsar ... Ivan resumed the tsardom once		Genghis Khan, was enthroned as tsar ... Ivan resumed the tsardom once
	the year was over, and pensioned off Simeon by making him grand prince of Tver." </blockquote>		the year was over, and pensioned off Simeon by making him grand prince of Tver." </blockquote>
		+	----------------------------------
		+	Don Stone posted on Mar 5, 2007
		+	<blockquote>This report on Wagner's Pedigree 44 (Atlantic to Pacific, 1274) is correct. The last marriage connection on the Pacific side is Maria (illegitimate daughter of Michael VIII Palaeologus), who married Abaka, Ilkhan of Persia, nephew of Kubla Khan.</blockquote>

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:16, 5 March 2007
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	It is perhaps relevant (and not coincidental) that these claims would		It is perhaps relevant (and not coincidental) that these claims would
	trace the two (perhaps) most notorious European potentates (bearing in mind that Vlad the Impaler was a Basarab) from Mongols. Some of the accounts I have seen are explicit in the suggestion that it is the descent from Mongols that explain these Men Behaving Badly, which smacks of racism. This is as an aside, because the genealogy is what it is, and whatever metainterpretation people draw from it have no bearing on the facts, one way or the other."</blockquote>		trace the two (perhaps) most notorious European potentates (bearing in mind that Vlad the Impaler was a Basarab) from Mongols. Some of the accounts I have seen are explicit in the suggestion that it is the descent from Mongols that explain these Men Behaving Badly, which smacks of racism. This is as an aside, because the genealogy is what it is, and whatever metainterpretation people draw from it have no bearing on the facts, one way or the other."</blockquote>
		+	-----------
		+	Subj: Re: European link to the Mongols
		+	Date: 3/5/07 2:06:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
		+	From: paulvheath@gmail.com
		+	Sender: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
		+	To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
		+
		+
		+	> I have seen two sets of claims. Basarab, the founder of the family
		+	> which bore his name, was son of Thocomerius of Wallachia. This appears
		+	> to be a rendering of the Cuman name Toktomer, and there was a Mongol
		+	> princeling of this name lining in the Crimea at the time. This has
		+	> led to the suggestion (I specifically recall it from Montcrieffe)
		+
		+	Moncrieffe (HRH, page 84): "... Kutyen Khan took refuge in Hungary ...
		+	and married his daughter to King Bela IV's son, the future King
		+	Stephen V ..."
		+
		+	Moncreiffe (HRH, page 101): "... There seems no reason, therefore, to
		+	doubt that 'Thocomerius', father of Basarab the Great, Prince of
		+	Valachia 1310-38, was one of two contemporary Tatar princes both named
		+	Toktemir in that area, both great-grandsons of prince Juchi, first
		+	Khan of the Golden Horde (died 1224) ..."
		+
		+	> I also recall there being some
		+	> Russian nobility that married Mongols, and it has been claimed that
		+	> Ivan the Terrible descended from them
		+
		+	Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 29): "... the grand
		+	prince married Yelena Glinskaya, a 23-year-old princess of Tatar
		+	descent ... Their first child, Ivan ..."
		+
		+	Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 44): "... Ivan announced
		+	that he was abdicating ... Simeon Bekbulatovich, a descendant of
		+	Genghis Khan, was enthroned as tsar ... Ivan resumed the tsardom once
		+	the year was over, and pensioned off Simeon by making him grand prince
		+	of Tver."