My Personal Best Descent From Charlemagne

by, Professional Genealogist

Since I enjoy hacking away at the fictional parts of other peoples family trees, I will give the world the chance to hack away at mine. Below I present my current own personal best descent from Charlemagne. Hack away, tell me where I'm wrong.


Like almost all descents from Charlemagne, this one has problems.  I regard it still as my best likely one, because the line from myself to Jean Baptiste Menard was worked out carefully by myself over some time.  The continuation up to Francis Hotman, and further to Jean de Marle, is supplied by the work of Rene Jette in his monumental opus, "Dictionnaire genealogique des famillies du Quebec".

The next part, the continuation of the de Marle family up to Thomas de Marle the Count of Amiens is the problematic portion, so I'd recommend hacking away at that part first.

Beginning with my near ancestor Joseph DesMarais

  1. Joseph Albert Napoleon DesMarais (1869-1935)
  2. Marie Claire Stephanie "Clara" Chagnon (1851-1911)
  3. Joseph Elie Chagnon dit La Rose (1823 ->1881)
  4. Marie Anne Brouillet dit Bernard (1800-1871)
  5. Josephte Grise dit Villefranche (1774->1851)
  6. Marie Josephte "Josette" Menard (1754-1787)
  7. Jean Baptiste Amable Menard dit Lafontaine (1729->1782) (see "American Descent from Francis Hotman")
  8. Jean Baptiste Menard dit Lafontaine (1699 - 1761/82) (see "American Descent from Francis Hotman")
  9. Marie Anne Fevrier (1676 ->1721) (see "American Descent from Francis Hotman")
  10. Marie Martin (1647-1680) (see "American Descent from Francis Hotman")
  11. Suzanne Jeanne d' Aillebout (1622-1680) (see "American Descent from Francis Hotman")
  12. Marie Dorothee de Menteith (1595/9 -> 1621)
  13. Suzanne "Anne" Hotman (1569/81 -> 1622)
  14. Francois Hotman (1524-90), Seigneur of Villers-St-Paul
  15. Paule, heiress of the Seigneurie of Villers-St-Paul (living 1572)
  16. Vaast (Waast), Seigneur of Villers-Saint-Paul (living 1545)
  17. Jean, Seigneur of Villers-St-Paul, living 1445, noble 1485
  18. Jean de Marle
  19. Thomas de Marle
  20. Louis de Marle
  21. Guillaume de Marle married Alix de Mailly
  22. Jean de Marle
  23. Jean de Marle
  24. Thibeau de Marle
  25. Hector de Marle
  26. Jacques de Marle
  27. Dreux de Marle
  28. male de Marle
  29. Thomas de Marle (~1080 - ~1130), Count of Amiens
  30. Enguerrand I (d. 1116) of Boves, Lord of Marle 1079-, Count of Amiens 1085-, Lord of Coucy 1086-
  31. Dreux de Coucy, Seigneur de Boves (living 1069)
  32. Adela de Mantes (born 1017/1028)
  33. Godgifu (Goda) of England (living Sep 1051)
  34. Aelfgifu (Emma), Queen of England (wife of Aethelred II, King of England 978-1013 and 1014-1016)
  35. Richard I "The Fearless", 3rd Duke of Normandy
  36. William I (891-943), 2nd Duke of Normandy 928-943
  37. Poppa, Duchess of Normandy (see "Poppa" in Frankish Nobility at Medlands and  "Poppa" in Normandy at Medlands which citing primary sources, states that William was a son of this second wife Poppa but that she was a daughter of Berengar, Count of Bayeux)
  38. Miss de Vermandois (wife first of Berengar, Count of Bayeux and also wife of Guy, Count of Senlis) ("Poppa" in Frankish Nobility at Medlands does not give her a name, only calling her daughter of Pippen, married first Berenger, Count of Bayeux, in order to reconcile sources)
  39. Pepin II "Quentin" (~818 -> 840), Lord of Perrone and St Quentin (Genealogics citing Rosch states that Pepin was the son of Bernhard, but does not give him any daughters)
  40. Bernarde or Bernhard (797-818) , King of Italy 813-7(Genealogics citing Rosch)
  41. Carloman "Pepin" (773-810), King of Italy 781-(Genealogics citing Rosch)
  42. Charlemagne, King of the Franks 768-814 (Genealogics citing E.S.)

Another descent follows the same path until:
  1. Thomas de Marle (~1080 - ~1130), Count of Amiens m thirdly Melissende de Crecy (Medlands)
  2. Ada de Roucy (d.~1106), Heiress of Marle m Enguerrand, Count of Amiens (Medlands)
  3. Lietaud de Roucy, Seigneur de Marle m Mathilde of unknown origin (Medlands)
  4. Gilselbert, Count of Roucy (living 991) his wife's name and origin are unknown (Medlands)
  5. Alberade of Hainault m Renaud de Roucy, Count of Rheims (Medlands)
  6. Giselbert, Duke of Lorraine 928- m Gerberge (daughter of Henry, HR Emperor) (Medlands)
  7. Regnier (d. 915/16), Duke of Lorraine m Alberade (she of unknown origin) (Medlands)
  8. female of Lorraine, her name not known to be Ermengarde married 846 Giselbert, Count in Massgau and Darnau (Medlands)
  9. Lothaire HR Emperor and King of Italy
  10. Louis I "the Pious", King of France 814-40
  11. Charlemagne, King of the Franks 768-814

A third descent line is traced out by Denis Beauregard on his website The line begins as above until  

  1. Guillaume de Marle married Alix de Mailly, and then continues back from Alix as
  2. Marguerite de PICQUIGNY (married Colard dit Payen de MAILLY)
  3. Jean de Picquigny and Marthe d'AMIENS
  4. Jean de Picquigny and Marguerite de BEAUMETZ
  5. Gilles II de Beaumetz and Jeanne de BAILLEUL
  6. Gilles I de Beaumetz and Agnes de COUCY
  7. Raoul de Coucy (m before 1191) Alix de DREUX
  8. Robert I de FRANCE (d 1188) Count of Dreux (m about 1152) Agnes de BAUDEMENT
  9. Louis VI "le Gros", King of France and Adelaide de SAVOIE

After a brief re-analysis of all possible ascents from Louis VI, it appears that every ascent in every source viewed, has some link based on speculation, or some bald modern statement not backed by a near-contemporary source.  So it appears that there are no solid ascents from Louis VI to Charlemagne.


Poppa ... of Vermandois?

Are you quite certain Poppa was a daughter of the Count of Vermandois? I believe William's mother was a Scandinavian concubine of Duke Robert I (Rollo) -- few of the early dukes of Normandy had children by their official wives.

John Yohalem - 28 Jan 2010

You're right and I've marked that now as problematic. I need to see what Medlands has to say. However William's wife Leudgarda was not the mother of his heir Richard, so that link wouldn't apply here.

Richard's mother was named Sprota or Adela, or perhaps Sprota was some kind of nickname.

Will Johnson - 28 Jan 2010

P.S. Per ES II, Poppa was a daughter of an unnamed Count of Bayeux, and not a Carolingian at all. But William's wife appears to have been a daughter of Heribert II of Vermandois (quite an important figure).

John Yohalem - 27 Jan 2010